I've been following this debate with great interest.
It doesn't particularly upset me when the place of worship of one religious group excludes all other groups. Hindus have a perfect right to keep non-Hindus out, after all, just as Muslims are free to keep non-Muslims out, or Christians to keep non-Christians out. It makes me a little sad, because I have had powerful spiritual experiences in the houses of other faiths, I didn't just go there "for the architecture" (something a lot of the people commenting on Uma's blog seem to have a problem with) and if I had not gone there I would have missed out on a lot that is beautiful and meaningful.
What I really want to talk about is how some of the comments on Uma's post seem to distinguish between 'religion' and 'belief'. I find that interesting, as it implies an innate difference between personal and social religious lives - surely if a person 'believes' in Hinduism s/he is a Hindu and vice versa? My knowledge of the religion is limited, but I don't believe there's a ritual (like baptism) to officially bring a person into the religion. Much has been made of the non-missionary nature of Hinduism, so I'm going to ask the opposite question - if someone born to Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Buddhist/Atheist/*insertreligionofchoice* were to learn about Hinduism and were to find themself believing in it, what would they have to do to be recognised as a Hindu? What if they were white? Or black? If they went to one of these temples, would the people in charge of keeping undesireables out believe that they were in fact Hindus?
Also, what does one have to believe to be a Hindu? There's a vast body of literature and many possible philosophies which seem to make up Hinduism. Or is it following a particular lifestyle? What lifestyle is that? If someone follows such a lifestyle is he a Hindu, even if his name is George Thomas? (I wrote John Thomas at first...eep.) What makes a person a Hindu?
I guess the reason I really want this answered is because religion is so important to us in this country. Everytime the census comes out we are given information about the relative sizes of various religious groups - we learn that more than 80% of Indians are Hindus, etc. (This is what leads to calls to Hindu wives to spread their legs and get on with it, or the proportion of Muslims to Hindus will change. The horror, I tell you!). I don't particularly mind the government obtaining and publicising this information - what I do mind is that I, for some reason, am included in that eighty-something percent. My surname not only locates me within the religion, but it even advertises my caste. My beliefs are far removed from this. I'm somewhere between agnostic and atheist, verging on the latter. The government refuses to acknowledge this - there's nowhere I can sign up to be a card-carrying atheist. What I'd really like is a system that either (a)doesn't take note of religion at all or (b)allows me the freedom to say what I believe and be classified on that basis, if I must be classified.
In the meantime, the only thing that can deny me access to a Hindu temple is my all-polluting uterus. And it's a bit silly, because I know people who would love to go to those temples and can't, while I haven't been in one for about seven years now. (I've never liked Hindu temples. There's just something about them that makes me feel physically uncomfortable. As a child I was dragged to lots of temples, and always left feeling physically ill. I choked on prasadam. I don't know why this was, perhaps some deep seated psychological problem. In my early teens I managed to say no in strong enough terms that I was left alone.)
In the summer, D and I went to the Baha'i house of worship ("the Lotus temple") one afternoon. He took some gorgeous pictures outside, but when we went inside we were overcome by the sheer serenity of the place.We sat there for ages in complete silence. I don't need to believe in the divine to have a spiritual experience - the sheer power of human spirituality awes me everytime I encounter it.
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I'm an extremely non-partisan Hindu - the only reason I even call myself that is because from my understanding of it, Hinduism affords me the choice to abstain from its social aspects. I thought that Hinduism did not grant individual Hindus the right to exclude other people from their 'way of life' (how many times have I heard it being described as a lifestyle, not a religion?)
I don't like the bifurcation of Hinduism into this sort of personal/social binary - it's very self-defeating in this case. It's this 'you're with us or against us' approach of the guys who are in charge of the more visible facets of the religion that completely throws me off.
"because I have had powerful spiritual experiences in the houses of other faiths, I didn't just go there "for the architecture" and if I had not gone there I would have missed out on a lot that is beautiful and meaningful."-can u clarify that point?
are you suggesting that every hindu should go to other reliogion's worship places to get ENLIGHTENED?
when you do not like our temples, why do you bother about them?
Sups - The 'lifestyle, not religion' issue makes the whole exclusion thing even more baffling, doesn't it?
Adi - I have found a kind of spiritual fulfillment in other places of worship. I am talking about myself. I'm not suggesting that you or 'every Hindu' look for 'enlightenment' anywhere, and I thought I'd made that amply clear when I stated that I don't consider myself a Hindu.
As for 'your' temples, I don't bother with them - I said I hadn't been in one for seven years. What I am concerned about is my status as a non-believer who is assumed to be a Hindu. Surely that at least is my business?
i agree about the spiritual fulfilment part. I am still unsure where my beliefs lie, but somewhere on the lines of agnostic so far. But i enjoy going to places of worship (of any faith) occasionally...its just so refreshing to see so mnay people with so much faith. They believe that everything can go away with a coconut broken or an abhishekam done....
Personally, my faith is rather limited, though i find myself praying very hard sometimes...to whom, no clue. And ure right, hinduism doesnt have a system by which people of other faiths can get 'converted' as they say. I guess its more like u have to be born one to be one. Rather silly methinks.
you can change your name.
and, even an atheist can be a hindu.that is there are a large no. of people who are atheists.
abt people of other religion getting converted into hinduism,
tell me, how can i become "chinese".(not merely a citizen of china). hinu is the name given to a civilization not for a perticular belief or way of life. it is evident by the fact that you can see people of contrasting beliefs and life styles but are still hindus.
tell me, how can i become "chinese"
-Develop a taste for large amounts of rice.
-Claim that your civilization created pasta before the Italians.
-Learn calligraphy...calligraphy is vital.
There's more to it than that- but it's good enough to get you started, if you're really interested.
kinfauns,
i have all qualities already except pasta thing.(south indians really hate rotis you know).
all i lack was a name but i now got it too.(kinfauns)
it is evident by the fact that you can see people of contrasting beliefs and life styles but are still hindus.
Um. You do realise that lots of religions have various sects which have different beliefs and lifestyles? Most of them have at least one defining belief. If Hinduism does not have a single belief, then how does one define it? If one cannot define it, how does one exclude people from it? Seriously, I'm baffled here. Your version of Hinduism seems all embracing to the point that keeping certain people out of temples is just bizarre.
As for the name change, good idea. Kindly suggest a few alternatives that have no religious connotations whatsoever.
Also, if it is impossible for someone who was not born a hindu to become one, those Hindus who run around acting sanctimonius for not being a 'missionary' religion really should stop - since they can't convert someone to Hinduism anyway, not trying to is hardly a great virtue.
Kinfauns - Are we stereotyping? Are we? (You forgot the hat and bicycle.) :)
Ah, I knew I was forgetting something important.
How about an elementary knowledge of birth control?
...But a hat and a bicycle wouldn't make you any more Chinese than a piece of thread make you a Brahmin, eh? The obligatory seven-course meal and worrying about the possibility of your daughters marrying off into lower caste families *Oh, the horror!* is vital, too, of course...
Dropped by after quite some time (been consciusly cutting down on blog-browsing, it's addictive).
Coincidentally, I've been brooding about organised religion. Drop by when you're done choking on the prasadam, we could spar a couple of rounds.
J.A.P.
the single belief is that we are hindus and india is our nation.
and the differences in other religion are very small when compared that in hinduism and the differences are not contrast in nature.thats why they are called sects. but hinduism actually consists of different religions and those inturn contain large no. of sects.
excluding people from it is very simple-see if they fall in any other "defined" religion.
as far as a non-hindu becoming a hindu, it is not impossible, only difficult. have you watched the last samurai?
at the end you feel(at least i felt) tom cruise more japanese than the prime minister.
take mother teresa (even though some oppose), she was more indian than many of us and she could have been easily become a hindu if she wanted.
the name i suggest is "version 1.0" and such things, and believe me this is really name of a person.
kinfauns(man or woman, i got to meet a massuse if i type your name 2-3 times more) seems totally filled with hate towards "persons with a piece of thread".
i suppose that stereotyping thing(i suppose it is in the deleted comments) is the answer for that.
Adi: hinu is the name given to a civilization not for a perticular belief or way of life.
What is hinu?
Oh, dear. I HATE Brahmins? What an intriguing idea...
Aishwarya, I'm sorry I hate you. Unavoidable, really. What with the 'piece of thread' and other sundry thread-related Brahminisms- like your purple booties(which are really yarn/ but then we're all broad-minded fellows, here, aren't we? Let us not nitpick)...
So, yes- how could I possibly avoid such a justifiable prejudice?
And Adi, if it pains you to spell my name often, a 'k' will suffice...You seem to have no objection to obliterating letters and even whole words from the rest of your sentences, so this shouldn't seem awkward in the least.
I would like to take a moment here to make it clear that I am not, repeat not, the Adi posting in this thread.
Aishwarya, I had a moving experience when I visited the Bahai temple in Chicago. It was dusk and snowing quietly. And I have never felt as peaceful and comforted as I did at that moment.
---
A professor talking about Hinduism once said that every person is born a Hindu - you are only baptised into another religion.
aditya bidikar: I expect you to take full responsibility for your kind (adi's). But since this is a democracy, we shall vote. All in favour of holding adi bidi responsible for adi's statements type 'Aye'.
Oh dear, and I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this; there've been far too many religious discussions in the past few days anyway.
As far as I remember, a belief in reincarnation and, to a certain extent, karma, are supposed as central a belief as one can get in Hinduism. Definitely not "we believe India is our nation" because ... well, let's not get me ranting.
The thing is, though, that Hinduism has the most extensive tracts on atheism and agnosticism of any religion. So it's entirely possible to be agnostic/atheist and Hindu all at once. Apparently the Rig Veda expresses doubts about existence and so on.
Don't ask me, I'm only telling you what Amartya Sen said.
This is Kavita, btw, stalking you via Shloks' blog.
Unfortunately, I'm not the Adi commenting here either - though I wish I was.
(word verification for this comment was "rgnadida"!)
adi - Good grief. Fine, if you want to believe that Kinfauns hates Brahmins, you're free to do so. You are also free to believe she's a neo-nazi, a member of the KKK and has a pet gorilla named Charles Martel.
So anyone who believes that they are Indian and Hindu may be considered a Hindu? I don't think the 'Indian' rider will go down well with non-Indian Hindus.
Nikhil, Jai - *grin*
Adi (Bidikar) - And why should I believe you?;)
Ash - The Delhi Bahai temple is very close to my house. I love it, it's one of the most rejuvenating places I've ever been. I love that I can have so much respect for the religion without actually believing in it.:)
Kavita - No stalking please. It's highly impractical considering your current location...maybe next time you're in Delhi?
a, hinduism is a collective 'way of life'- a grouping of varied philosophical and devotional traditions, conveniently refered to as a religion. india has 82% hindus, 12 mulsim, 4 christian and so on.
one cannot convert to hinduism. one can though to islam and christianity. dont know about the others.
b. very few really know about what their religion is or stands for, and even fewer even care. as long as they can they do what 'needs' to be done. at the end of the day its a matter of convenience like anything else. history is there for us to know how these things work. right from iyer-iyengar, to the pope/king/crusades..its all convenience. even today one changes from a mudaliar to a pariyan to get into engineering, but the bride sought for will be mudaliar.
c. religion or rather organized religion was meant to bring people together. it has done that but in the process, made them 'different' from the other religion. people from the 'other' religions will go to hell. that is where religion has failed and frankly today is just an hindrance.
d. religious places are meant for communicating with i. yourself and ii. god, whoever u may think it is. siteseers and curio shoppers - hmm. nevermind.
e. religion is essentially a support system.
f. sorry if this sounds a bit overboard, but i've been on both sides- a son of a priest currently agnostic.
It's true about the gorilla! Only he's a wookiee and I call him Chewbacca.
I have some pretty severe reservations about organised religion.
However have you tried going to different places of worship and getting under the skin of that faith?
-so be christian in a church (that includes taking communion), muslim in a mosque (dress appropriately too), hindu in a temple, buddhist in a monastery-either as an intellectual experiment, or perhaps to relate to the whole load of vibrations emanating from the worshippers around, and see if you get sucked into a powerful spiritual moment, and even their faith for a few brief moments.No need to build your own religion after all. Just draw on the energy around without specific beliefs and the fuss around all the rules. Shortcut!
Alternately perhaps you find out that it does nothing for you besides strengthening your cynicism/ amusement/ disdain/ superiority!
aye
The Unrest Cure:
hinu is hindu without d.
K: i am very sorry if i mis-interpreted your comments but it seemed to me like so. may be i got some prejudice too. but no prejudice can be justified.
Aishwarya:
dont get me started on this nazi thing. please.
Prejudices are justifiable when formed on the basis of the undeniable offensiveness of certain practices- like the wearing of purple booties.
Neo-Nazi? Me? Ha ha. Am retired vindow cleaner and pacifist, without doing war crimes. And eating I am lots of chips and fish and hole in the toads and Dundee cakes on Piccadilly Line, don't you know, old chap! And I vos head of Gestapo for ten years.
Five years!
Nein! No! NOT head of Gestapo AT ALL! I was not, I make joke!
***
(Did Aishwarya mention I'm also homophobic?)
K:
"undeniable offensiveness of certain practice"
this undeniable thing is highly subjective and depends upon persons,locations and many more things. so it is very essential not have any prejudices, as for as possible.
orange booties? what are they?
i got no idea abt them.
hahahahahahahahaha.
(this is me laughing at your joke).
Have to agree with you - find this 'no temple during your periods' thing so irritating and downright stupid. In my younger, rebellious days, I used to actually make a point of going...now I don't bother because I don't like most temples anyway, with the noise and the clatter...what I like is the stone temples, like Kedarnath, or the half-ruined, forgotten little temples where no one comes and you are free to sit or stand and do your own thing.
A Hindu is anyone who lives south of the Hindukush parvat (Hindukush Mountains). The word 'hindu' was derived from 'sindhu' which is the name of a river- 'Indus' that flows now in Pakistan. Hence the 'Indus Valley Civilisation' ('sindhu ghaati ki sabhyata') Invaders from the north/ north west found it easier to say 'hindu'. Just like we have words like 'heptagon' and 'septagon'- both meaning having seven sides. The letters 'h' and 's' were interchangeable. 'hafta' in persian means 7 days: a week, similarly 'saptah' in sanskrit means seven days. 'haft-hindu' translated into 'sapt-sindhu'. Hindus are the ones that live around river Indus. Even Pakistanis are hindus. Being a hindu doesn't mean you are following a particular religion. The religion is called 'sanatan dharma'.
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